lets speak about outriggers!!!

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lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by milemaster on Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:44 am

many of our members they building extreme saw or oval outrigger!!! joerg, randy naylor, gill, jaro, eric laerman, justski, tenshock italia!!!! I love outriggers boats because with this boat you can go easy 100km + with a normal setup!! Is very nice to drive one!!! And if you start build one rigger the construction is very difficult!!!!


I think in outrigger build the shape and the dimencions are playing a big role for the total result like in every fast boat!!! what you think about the proper shape for this kind of boats?

πολλα απο τα μελη μας κατασκευαζουν εκπλητικα saw ή oval race outrigger!!! joerg, randy naylor, gill, jaro, eric laerman, justski, tenshock italia ειναι καποιοι απο αυτους!!!! Μου αρεσουν πολυ αυτα τα σκαφη γιατι μπορεις να πιασεις 100χλμ + με ενα σχετικα φθηναο και νορμαλ setup !!! Ειναι φανταστικα στο να τα οδηγας!! Και τελος η κατασκευη τους ειναι τρομερα δυσκολη!!!

νομιζω οτι καθοριστικο ρολο παιζουν οι διαστασεις και το σχημα οπως και σε ολα τα γρηγορα σκαφη!!!! ποιο νομιζετε οτι θα ηταν το ιδανικο σχημα- διασταση?
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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by grsboats on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:37 am

G'day all this a great subject to be discussed so let's see what are your thoughts.When you see a good boat running fast and easy be sure that there is lot of work involved and I would start pointing out to the balance of aero versus hydrodynamics.This topics has been discussed at exaustion at Intlwaters with guys like Andy Brown(CMDI team),Ralph Almirola(roadrunner team) and first thing is eliminate the ground effect.My last outrigger design is based on the TGV (train de haut vitesse) and when you take a look to the tub you can see this shape.The flat plane technology used with Jae's is welll known with saw nitro riggers and has played a great difference in the last years in USA despite being used in Japan for long time.just to start this debate.Gill

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by milemaster on Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:31 pm

yes i agree with you gill....but in recent years the shape of a rigger has changed.... today desings are all less wide and the length is between 1-1.10m .... i think riggers with more lenght is more stable and more easy to control!!!! i dont know its a thought maybe i am wrong!
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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by grsboats on Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:17 pm

Well if you look at nitro saw riggers most of them are .45 size with different powerhouses in them.At the begining using a 45 boat with a Mac 84 I was reluctant due to the overpower but after have seen guys like Andy using the same set up breaking the 120mph(1996) I think that the lenght will depend on which boat we are talking about,When I built a Jae Fe with a Leopard 4082(my first Fe boat in life) most have told me that it would be a pain to fit things in it and respect the cog(60/40%) and in fact it was but with some creativity I could rearrange the electronic and she ran superbly with speeds up to 85mph.check this out https://youtu.be/ym0vOQDDbIc

My GRX is not a big boat just 34 inch and even powered by a 6hp motor is very predictable. there are so many good designs in the market that you can use one of them as a base for your own building.Gill

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by milemaster on Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:43 am

yes gill i agree with you but we must not forget that a speed 160-180 is normal for a rigger but its to difficult to catch it!!! riggers doing well to this speed but i think when you go over 200-210 things changing a lot...you rigger and jaro s rigger go very stable but i think all of us we made something because we have the dream deep inside us to go over 240km... i think all of us we want to go faster and faster....the modification you made in your rigger i think worked perfect but is it enough? you think you have to made another modifications? electronics play a very important role to top speed!!! when you go for top speed you must know all the dangers for esc-motors... i think there arent esc right now in the market who can manage the amps we want...there are many good batteries but the big amps esc have big dimensions and are real heavy!! esc technology i think is very old in the dimension part!! what you think!!! cheers Nikos
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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by grsboats on Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:31 am

Nikos from the mid 70's to mid 80's most of us here used to run only FSR boats(mono's) under Naviga rules.At that time more precisely in 1982 I was bored to see that people in America with same motors were able to double the speed of our boats.I had boats like Skuai,Silak 7 and Mastodonte powered by Picco and Ops engines(60,65 and 90) running just 60/75km/h.In 1984 I scratch built my first rigger based on a Crapshooter 60 with a Black head Picco 65 and my boating changed a lot since that.At the same time I received my first Aeromarine cat Popeye 50 equipped with a Picco 80 and most of guys in the club moved to oval racing.Just to number the speeds upgraded from 40 to 65 miles and the big challenge to go faster and faster became a goal.It took me maybe twenty more years to be in the high 80's until reach my first saw event and see all tips and trick of this class.Well I'm still trying to find the best way to go fast but sincerely I'm pretty happy with my last achievements with nitro and Fe riggers.I don't think I will go any faster with the budget we stablished among friends..there's a compromise to compete under local rules here and probably the most important is to not break the bank just playing with boats.So our classes are quite different from USA and Europe and you can run what you brung(nitro,gas and Fe).Actually we have a Fe class that allows people to run with 40mm motors on 8Smax and another with 56mm on 10Smax.Last year I prove to myself that with a very low budget I could go fast and my Jae Fe ran 143km with chinese electronic..all package cost me U$400.I'm not a great "conesseur" in electronic but have read a lot and found out that things are quite different than combustion boats.In July 2004 was the first time I ran up to 100mph with my nitro rigger but at an expensive cost(Mac 84 mod,65% nitro) Andy B props etc .To go 100mph with a nitro/gas rigger is not an easy task but in counterpart with a good brushless motor and a good boat it's another history.For years I 've been following fe cats on youtube going fast but at what cost?Man two Lehner's,two Schulze,expensive batts and HPR hulls that kept me away from this boating .I hope to see more and more good products being released at reasonable prices to see the growth of Fe boating in my country.
There's no way to say this or that are perfect boats.every litlle mod can be a good step toward improvements in our hobby.I did three or four mods on my fe rigger in the last months and hope my brainstorming continue to give me good insights to have a better boat.I must agree that The Jae team is great resposible for keeping power boating alive in the USA after the big turmoil in 2008 and after have built all Jae's riggers I figured out that the flat plane technoly could be a good idea for my sponsons and voilá the GRX based on a Jae rigger showed a great potencial.Let's see what will happen from now on with new props and batteries.Cheers.Gill

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by Jaro on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:55 am

Luckily for us, to go fast, you don't need to spend big money anymore.

My outrigger on this video runs on a 100$ motor, 250$ ESC and there are cells for 110$ in total in it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDQiXV3OjhI
The end is not really triumphal but it was my driving error.

Or even better:
This one (a little slower, but still very fast) runs on 60$ motor, 100$ ESC and 25$ cells...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPtWbOPlvK8

They are both non commercial hulls. And I even use standard Octura propellers...



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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by grsboats on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:14 pm

Hi Jaro congrats for your fast boats.Yes we can celebrate lower prices with Fe products but I do know that cheap ones don't last too much ...anyway a fast boat is a matter of a good combo.Gill

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by Jaro on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:34 pm

Of course I'm not talking about cheapest you can get but those for reasonable price.
There is no big secret what I'm using. It is Leopard - Swordfish- Turnigy combo.
And I have to say, that I made a big number of passes with this equipment without losing performance.

But I couldn't agree more with your last statement: The real secret of success is in the hulls.
Everyone have its own philosophy or theory about how should fast boat be designed.

Keep it light and keep it simple is my motto!

Jaro
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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by milemaster on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:45 pm

yes when we build a hull must be very light!!! a little problem here in greece is that we reinforce the hulls a lot because we have a lot of crashes and backflips because we play in open sea!!!! we don t have many lakes!!!

good combo !!! you have said the correct frase !!! correct rpm-correct props-nice shape-light hull = max speed!!!
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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by grsboats on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:42 am

I see your issues there...run boats in open sea will depend on mother's nature mood but better than don't play.
About construction I 've been working with different technics ,hand laid up,RTM(resin transfer molding) and vacuum bagging and what I can testemony is that all work good dependending on the composite materials you use.I make my cf and cf/kevlar pannels using Coremat for sandwicth in áreas like transon,bulkheads and booms support so a light hull is not necesseraly weak if you pay attention to the reinforcement áreas.I had blow overs at high speeds with no injuries and recently hit unfortunetely a turtle with only a rudder blade damage.I gather the idea of playing with the called "auto structured shapes" with less right angles or long flat surfaces.I built three Fe riggers and learned along testing where were the weak points of my building to ended up with a Strong/light hull. West System and Huntsmann epoxy products are some of the good brands we have here.Gill

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by rc-lady on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:59 am

wow!!!!! gill and jaro !!!thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!!! as you say before we must not have any secrets!!! your boats are extremely fast and beautifull and all that result came from your experience!!! i am very happy to be with you here guys!!! well done!!! thank you very much!!!

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by grsboats on Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:23 am

You're welcome and show we most of your builds too Gill

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by rc-lady on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:23 am

i am starting to building a mono prototype !!!! when i finished i am going to build a outrigger!!! with your help and your guidance i think i can make it!!!

thank you gill

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by JfromJAGs on Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:10 am

The good thing about outriggers is that quite some designs will work well. Running really fast, such boats are more planes than boats though, so one needs to think a lot about aerodynamics. Not so much about aerodynamic drag, but about aerodynamic stability. We are flying planes in ground effect with water propelled propusion. Not much is known about this, there are almost no scientific theories about such vehicles. Also there is very little scientific theory about the props we use. All this is not of big commecial interest, so no professionals look really deap into this area. Which makes it a lot of fun for us hobby scientists.

Everyone who builds such boats has his own theory - and its hard to tell which is right and which is wrong. So we can talk about this topic, but I will not argue about it. Whoever has a good theory shall use it and then proof it on the water. On the other hand, a record breaking design does not mean this is the perfect solution, so its very nice to see different approaches and there is always something to learn.

Like Jaro pointed out and proved with his boats, FE is in a very good position right now: motors, ESCs and LiPo batteries can be bought for very reasonable prices and especially riggers can be very, very fast on rather low power. I too like this much better than such high cost, high power cats. Using them its too much about who has the deapest pockets - I like the scientific approach using your brain much better. Thus I run outriggers for SAWs.

Best regards,
Joerg

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by grsboats on Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:37 pm

For years I subscribed for a japanese hobby journal and was curious about their designs more specially riggers.Well before the 100mph record done in USA our japan friends proved to be in this club with O.S engines.Now looking to the Jae records it is easy to know why this good design was choosen by american experts..Mark Grimm,Steve O'Donnel and other hot dogs use the flat plane tecnology in their nitro riggers reason I adopted this concept in my boat.About aerodinamics is a matter of looking preference as I'm not an expert to highlight this subject but keep it simple is the way I go.Cheers Gill

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by milemaster on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:42 pm

i like this phrase joerg used aerodynamic stability.... also liked his aproach about the opinion of each builder!!!  i love this discusion!!! here we can combine all the opinions we have the best builders in the world who can tell us  and teach us a lot of stuff and maybe all together we can develope outrigger theory!!! joerg you said that prop theory in riggers is very important and i think props in outrigger must be low diametre and high pitched in the highest rpm!!! i have right? or i am wrong? i dont know much about props and for that i ask everybody for your opinion!  

thanks nikos
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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by grsboats on Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:00 pm

Nikos the aerodinamics subject has been debated to exhaustion in some forums and  sincerely I don't think it is the major factor for a sucessfull design.Take a look to the Jae and see the simplicity involved in this building.I like very much the SGX profile of Andy Brown riggers and adopted the same basis to build my nitro rigger to have a fast boat.I see Joerg's design being used for some guys to repeat his achievements with no sucess.If the combo is unbalanced forget good performance.For props I would say define a good starting point for your boat and go to water how many times you think you need to improve your speeds.In my case I have a pitch gauge in my toolbox with a set of plyers to mod my props...this is a time consuming process that pays off.Gill

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by JfromJAGs on Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:10 am

One need to consider that our boats have been designed at a time when electrics used heavy NiCd and NiMH cells. We needed aerodynamic lift to compensate the weight panelty. I think this worked really well, but as I said, it only works considering aerodynamic stability.

Today, with the light LiPo cells, the power to weight ratio of an electric boat is very similar to a nitro powered boat, so for sure much less aerodynamic lift is required. The question is if that means no aerodynamic lift at all or if a slight lift - in combination with stability considerations - will result in higher speeds. We will see how this turns out as we (the JAGs team) are working on our first LiPo-only SAW rigger at the moment.

I agree with Gill though that just copying our design without paying attentions to details you don't see on pictures will not result in success. In this case it's the better idea to stay on the road that has lead many nitro racers to success. I think at least speeds in the range of 120-140mph are possible with this approach. I'm not sure if speeds in the target area of 160mph can be done though. We will see. Nobody has been there yet to tell how it can be done.

One of the things I have learned when we finally ran faster with electrics as our nitro friends is, that their limitations are the rather low RPMs of the nitro motors. They need big props to get the pitch they need. Electrics can use much smaller props and spin them higher. As long as a boat accelerate quickly enough your prop is not too small. Pitch ratio is one of the key factors for efficiency - the more pitch ratio you have, the less rotation speed is required for a certain forward speed, which means less drag. So far I have found only one paper about scientific high pitch propeller tests and this ended at 2.0 pitch ratio - while 2.0 pitch ratio had the highest peak efficiency. I have not gone higher myself, but I don't know where the maximum is either. Prop design involves much more than only diameter and pitch ratio though, so this alone could fill books - books which do not exist so far as surface piercing props for very high speed boats are of no commercial (and thus scientific) interest. I have my own theory - so far this works well for me, but the experience with those props is very limited. 

Joerg

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by grsboats on Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:40 pm

Joerg I see a huge advance with electronics and I'm glad to have entered to Fe class in a time where esc's,motors and packs made  great improvements over the last years.Again agreed with you that props are a different world to be understood and we will need more time to fix our limitations.Hope to see new records falling down soon.Gill

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by milemaster on Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:34 am

Well finally have good news for me i found a new daily job!!!! thats make me very happy and give me strength to continue with my life and my hobby!!! i agree with you guys props is an unknown world for us and very difficult to understand because there is nowhere written what a prop can do with what boat and how many rpms we need!!! great builders like you have test a lot of them and make huge speed records!!!! i think only many tests can give us great results!!!
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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by MrRcFanatik on Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:47 pm

milemaster wrote:Well finally have good news for me i found a new daily job!!!! thats make me very happy and give me strength to continue with my life and my hobby!!! i agree with you guys props is an unknown world for us and very difficult to understand because there is nowhere written what a prop can do with what boat and how many rpms we need!!! great builders like you have test a lot of them and make huge speed records!!!! i think only many tests can give us great results!!!

I haven't ever raced a rigger before, but I just wanted to say conrats to you man!!  Great that you have a job now! Smile

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by tso on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:34 am

wow joerg you have right my friend props is an unknown world for us!!!! only with a lot of tests we can found the best prop for our boat!!!

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Re: lets speak about outriggers!!!

Post by grsboats on Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:32 am

Glad to hear you found a job and you can be back to your life.Cheers Gill

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